Frank de Leon Jr. - Oral History

Today is Sunday, December 15, 2024, My name is Sergio G Barrera. I'm interviewing Frank De Leon Junior in Austin, Texas for the Travis County oral history project. We are at the University of Texas at Austin campus. Thank you, Mister De Leon, for agreeing to this interview. The raw, unedited recording of this interview will be archived at the Travis County archives, where it will be available to anyone who wishes to access it. As we said earlier, if there is anything you don't wish to talk about, we respect your wishes. Also, if there is something you want to discuss, please do make sure we discuss it. Please. Also, let us know if you need to pause the interview. Today, we are going to talk about your life experiences, particularly as it relates to the palm school. We'll also discuss, discuss your relationship to community education and political participation, and if you're ready, Mr. De Leon, let's begin. Okay, so the first thing that I want to ask is, could you please tell us your name and your relation to Palm School.

So the first thing I want to ask is could you please tell us your name and your relation to Palm School?

My name is Frank de Leon Jr., I was a student at Palm School from '52 to '58

And if you could describe what your childhood was like?

I was raised by my father, so we were pretty independent. I have two other brothers and we kinda did uh, kinda did our own thing. Very little adult supervision. But uh, we never got in trouble.

We walked to school, at the time. And Palm School, we lived at, I think Willow Street, and then also on 8th Street. Right there on 8th and Intersate 35 which it is today, I think highway 81. But uh, we walked to school.

In the 1960s, walking was the main mode of transportation for children in the United States getting to school. It slowly decreased over time due to increased car dependency and urban sprawl.

It was just me and my brothers and my dad and, we had cousins, but you know it was just the three of us mostly.

Yeah so I'm interested in how you remember their normalcy. What seemed normal to you, of your childhood?

I remember school, going to school. You know, all the different classes. Trying to uh, one of the things I wanted to do would be a Safety Patrol. Back then they used to have students crossing the streets

cause at the time there was highway 81, 1st Street, 2nd Street, a lot of traffic back then. Not like today.

But we had Safety Patrols. That was like the fifth and sixth graders. Once and awhile they would come and pick- if you were one of the Safety Patrol, they would need extra guys and they would come to classes and pick- select somebody. I got picked once, and I think that was exciting.

So I want to talk about the Safety Patrol and um, we'll make a reference of that. I want you to describe what your family was like, um in East Austin.

Well just my brothers, and my dad, and uh. We had other members. I don't know who they were. But they were other people, but they were mostly adults. So it could've been a house where there were other members. Because it was a real large house, I remember. Real large backyard. And uh, I remember, this one individual. There was a lady who would come take care of us, feed us I guess? Cause my dad worked all day so we would come home, and she would have lunch or supper ready for us and stuff.

And I remember that he was, we were talking in, I remember one time he was talking in Spanish. And back then I guess my Spanish wasn't that good. And he was trying to [unintelligible] me, I told him "oh my socks," "calcetines," I used to say "sacatines." And he would try to correct me and I could never say "calcetines." I would say "sacatines." I remember that.

And that's when we lived in San Marcos Street. That's before, they uh, Holiday Inn was built. The neighborhood on San Marcos Street went all the way down to the river, the river's edge, which is Town Lake. I remember living there also.

But as far as other people, it was just basically the, me and my brothers.

So in terms of, and this is something that we discussed off cameras. But just so that, so it's on the record, your mother passed away at a young age, so you were predominantly raised by your father, correct?

Correct, yeah. I remember when she, the day she died, I remember my sister Lucy, I had a sister Lucy, also. My three brothers. My sister Lucy, she's from a previous marriage of my mother, but they didn't live with us. Still live with my mother. But when she- my mother died, I remember my sister Lucy was trying to breathe air into her.

Yeah, I did have a sister, two sisters and but I don't remember that much about 'em. My sister, Lucy, my sister Bertha, also, and this is from- my mother had a previous marriage. And I had a brother Rudy, and a brother Jesse. And my dad married my mother, and she was a widower, my mother, when he married her. But they were, they were only in my life early on, after my mother died, we didn't have contact with them to till years later, yeah. But we kind of reunited in the last- you know, since then, yeah. They have all have passed away. My sister, Lucy and Bertha, and my brother, Jesse and Rudy. My brother, Rudy, he was in Vietnam. He died from Agent Orange, cancer, yeah. But, but we didn't have that much contact with my step brothers, step sisters. It was basically just me, Geraldo and Marcos.

So Gerardo, Marcos and yourself, who is the eldest, who is the middle child, who is the-

I'm the oldest and then Marcos. And then Gerardo, yeah, there.

And we didn't know him as “Gerardo,” we always knew him as “Jerry.” Everything was “Jerry”, all the paperwork. And then when he grew up, he found out his name was not “Jerry”. His official birth name, “Gerardo”. So he had to go back and redo all kind of paperwork for that. Nobody could say “Gerardo”. They say “Jerardo”. So “Jerry”, there you go.

And this is something you spoke a little bit about. What languages would you say you spoke at home?

Well, I think we spoke Spanish, but I don't remember. I remember speaking English all my life. I don't even even in, even after- in high school, we spoke English mostly, I think basically I don't- Marcos, I guess because he went to college, he he was immersed in Spanish. But I and Gerardo were not, were really not immersed in Spanish speaking after I graduated from high school, I don't think I spoke Spanish till I came back. I left in '65 came back in '63, and everything was in English.

And what about your neighborhood? Do you were? Was it a bilingual neighborhood? Would you say?

Yeah, Willow Street. I think it's Willow or Wallace. I think it's Willow. It was, I can't I remember, I just remember the backyard. It was a big, large backyard. That's all I remember. And an alley. We'd go to the backyard, to the alley, and then we hit 1st Street to get to school. Oh, excuse me, Ceasar Chavez Street now.

Okay, let’s say Willow but Rainey Street and 8th Street, I remember that pretty clear. We lived after Willow Street. We moved to onto 8th Street, and we were next to the French Legion on, I don't know if you're familiar with that. That's the embassy for the country of France. When Texas was a republic, they were the only state that had a embassy in there, in the in the state, of course, Texas became a state that's but we lived right down the block from that, and Eighth Street, right there in a street, oh, but four or five houses down, up from Interstate 35 which was a highway 81 back then, and then we moved to, then we moved to Rainey street, I think, yeah, after, after I got out of Palm School.

So after we moved to Rainey Street, that was junior and high school, and I remember that more than 8th Street or Willow Street. And we lived right there in the corner of Daley- I mean, that's Daley, that's at San Marcos, but corner of Rainey and Holly, one house down from Holly. And we lived there. 66 Rainey and 68 Rainey, and we moved there. The streets were not paved, so there was real when the cars went by, it got dusty, and then when it rained, the streets got real muddy. But I remember a Rainey Street more than, say, the other streets, but it was a real nice neighborhood. We had, as far as I think most people were in my block were Hispanic. There was some, some Anglos for that by Driscoll and Red River. There were a lot of Anglos, but they you didn’t see them, but you knew they lived there, you know.

In 1958 almost half of Austin's roads were unpaved, with most of these unpaved roads being locaed in black and hispanic neighborhoods.

And then there was a maintenance plant there the City of Austin, with a street maintenance, and they had an alley. Our Alley was paved back then, all the alleys were dirt. But we had the only paved alley in our neighborhood, in that whole area. Because the trucks came in after working, they would come to the in from the alley, and the alley was paved, like really nice. I remember that. That's how we used to get to town. We's go the back alley, hit Driscoll down the first Red River in the first street, and go into town or to school. And on- in that alley, there was also a large vacant lot, and we spent a lot of time there, they had a lot of pecan trees. And it was very it was really nice. And we spent a lot of time there, hiking, playing around, stuff like that. During the fall, we would go pick up pecans and get bags and pecans and go sell them at, I forgot exactly where that place was, Miller something or other, but, but the neighborhood was mostly Hispanic. I remember most of my neighbors.

And then we also spent a lot of time. There used to be a Salvation Army Youth Center on Holly and Interstate 35, or Holly and San Marcos Street. And it was a- Salvation Army Youth Center. It was a large gym-like place. It had a large park, and we'll play baseball, football. And then on week- on Friday nights, they would have movies, arts and crafts. I remember they used to have a pool table. I learned how to play pool and on the stage they had a boxing ring, and we would box. And they also had a basketball court. Spent a lot of time playing basketball. Makes a hat on arts and crafts in a little day room. And they also had a Cub Scout Den there. And like say, every Friday night, they would show movies. During to winter the movies were inside, and during the summer they would show them outside, and that was on Holly Street. Yeah, I remember that. Spent a lot of time there, a lot of time, yeah.

So um, I want you to guide me to your father's role and what he thought about y'all's education. What was, what do you think was his- I guess his- how does he feel about the role of education for you all, and your siblings, your two brothers, and how do you know about about that feeling?

Well, I think he never- what's the word, he never pushed us, but he- we knew that we were supposed to go to school. So I remember, I remember going to school, coming back from school. That's when I went to Palm and then, then we went to junior high and high school. And he when we knew we were supposed to go. And he worked all day, so when he left to work like six o'clock, seven o'clock in the morning, we knew we had to go to school. So we, we, we prepared. We got cleaned up. We got ready to go to school, but he didn't, never said, you're "going to get this if you don't go to school. We just knew we had to attend school. But we still, I know for myself, I played hooky sometimes. He found out. So he was, he was very- this was junior high.

We'd go up Red River. And sometimes I didn't get past 1st Street. There was the area was kind of- not wilderness, but there was some empty houses and places you could hang around all day without being caught.

But, but we, we all finished school. We all graduated. It's not because my father forced us, but we just knew we had to do it. When my father found out that I played hooky-

The fact that all three de Leon brothers graduated was a subtantial achievement for the time. In the mid 20th century, over half of all Mexican Americans dropped out by the 1st grade. They had the lowest graduation rates of any racial and ethnic group due to socioeconmic factors like poverty.

and alotta times it was I remember, you know about Waller Creek? This is the Waller creek right here in Austin. It goes all the way from East Austin. It comes out in Town Lake. We spent a lot of time there, particularly in the summer, and the spring.

but when my father found out he got a letter or- anyway, he found out we had to have a meeting with the principal. And I spent the rest of the semester in junior high every day at detention hall for about- the whole- about four months, every day after school, had to go to detention hall. I learned that's a good thing, because I got caught up in my studies.

So earlier in the in the interview, we're talking about how you would walk to school, and I want you to describe what that process was like. Did you go alone? Were other people with you? What was that journey from home to school like?

Okay, I can't- Palm School, it was pretty it was pretty simple, I can't remember that much. But going to junior high, I remember we used to- most of the time we would walk. And University Junior High was, I think, on Red River, 19th and Red River, not too far from Memorial Stadium. I don't know if it's still there or not, but we would, I would walk. We would walk from the house, on on, on Rainey street, cross, uh, 1st Street, Ceasar Chavez, and get on Red River and just walk. 19 blocks. And most we would- it was winter time. I don't think we had bus service back then. It was just a matter of fact, we didn't have school busses. There was the city busses, and they would cost, I think, five cents, four cents, something like that. But there was no busses that I can recall that would go to the University Junior High, so we would walk.

The City of Austin stopped running city busses to the East Austin neighborhood during the summers.

And it was, I still remember all the places. One of the first places you use to have was there on 6th Street before it- before 6th Street. It was sort of like a neighborhood shopping area, you had all kind of stores there before, grocery stores, shoe stores, movie theaters, shoe repair stores, furniture stores, movie- but we went past that and and on the way up there, there was a bakery, and they used to call them "segundas," second hand stores. They would- I remember that. And then I remember the Spanish Village. There was a was a Mexican restaurant there, and keep going. There was 7/11, keep going. And then I think Brackenridge Hospital was on the way up there too. And we get to- there was a couple of beer joints. And I remember there was uh, my brother- there was a sign that said “no minors allowed.” And we would say, "What is that? How couldn't they let miners? They got gold. They look for gold." We didn't know we were minors. You know, we used to laugh about that. But, yeah, but I remember there was a tire shop, tire repair shop on the way up there, and then junior high.

So in terms of Palm School, you say you don't, kind of-

I remember, yeah, don't, I don't remember walking there. I remember being there, but not, you know, I'm assuming we just got, you know, Willow Street and couple blocks, 1st Street and then the school. I remember the entrance the, I think on the way, there used to be and old Good Year Repair, repair shop, service store. I remember a drug store right there in the corner on the left hand side by, before you get to the Interstate 35 they used to be a drug store there. And there was some large mansion-type houses. I think there's a couple of them still left, but I said we didn't have 35 so it was just a regular highway. There was no overpass there at the time.

The overpass of I-35 was constructed in 1973 and 1974

And I remember entering high-, the school, I remember the tree, you walked in, one two rooms, one left, one on the left, on the right, and then further up you would enter this- on the left side, there was the office. And then upstairs, towards- you go upstairs, there was a library, and it faced the First Street, I believe, my first room, my first class, first grade, was the first room on the left, I remember, and I remember being there. And then I think they had a downstairs, and from the downstairs exit to the back, that led to the Palm Park. This be a park there. I think it was part of the school. So they had swings, merry go rounds and a swimming pool. And then the Superior Dairies was there too. But right next to Superior Dairies was the cafeteria, and also it was a- a stage and the lunch room. And the lunch room, I remember going and getting food there with the show all their card, and I think was $35 a month, I mean not $35, $0.35 to eat there for a month or a week. I remember they used to give me $1.05 and we would pay. There was a lady there taking our money. Give us our card. Yeah.

In terms of the classroom experience, how do you remember Palm School and being in the classroom?

Well, my first grade, I remember being there. And I remember was we had, it was Columbus Day, and the teacher gave us all pictures of Columbus, so we had to color it. And then she took the best ones and displayed them. I remember. And mine was one of them. I remember that. And I remember, in October, she, she did a play, well, actually, not a play, but a story telling. We got around the table, and she would, she would tell this gruesome story about parts, body parts, eyes, fingers, and she would pass them or something around. And we thought it was, and it was kind of, and it was scared. The girls would scream, and she would sit on, this is a heart, this is an eye, finger, you know, would pass it around. I remember that.

Do you remember the teacher's name?

No, the only teacher I remember was my, I think my sixth grade teacher, Mrs. Schultz or Mrs. S, and that was upstairs. I remember, I remember Mr. Boyd, one of my- the last principal I knew. He was a real nice guy, too. I remember, I remember going to the office getting paddled a couple of times. You miss misbehave in class back then you misbehave- I don't know what I did, but me and my friends, we went up to the school principal's office, and he had a paddle. It was a baseball bat cut in half. You know, that took off the round part, and it was a flat and man, it was big. Whap. Paddles.

Was this a common occurrence at Palm School or-

What the paddling? Yeah, if you were bad, I guess, yeah! Yeah...

Did it happen to you more than once?

Do you know when Mr. Boyd came into the school?

I think once or twice, but that's something you don't forget. I think Mr. Boyd, when he came in, he didn't do that. It was the form- with the other principal. I don't remember him. I just remember getting paddled by him, but it was maybe once or twice. But I must have done really bad. I don't I have no idea what it was.

No, I know it was prior, before, maybe the, maybe the fifth or sixth, before the before the fourth and sixth grade, I would say. Maybe the fifth and sixth, maybe the last two years I was there. But he was a real nice man.

In terms of, if you could describe, if you remember what a classroom in, you know, inside Palm School looked like, how would you describe it?

A lot of windows. Yeah, a lot of windows. Yeah, like, I remember the first grade. I think fifth grade and sixth, I remember. I remember. I remember one class which it faced the it faced the highway. And sometimes we could look out the window, you could see I-35 under construction. I remember that. And I remember the- I remember math. I realized I used to love to do- The teacher would call us up and do math problems, division and multiplications. And I was really good at that. I enjoyed that. I remember going- I remember the the heaters. They were the steam heaters, not like, not AC, like you got today, so in the winter time, as part of it was, it wasn't cold, but it wasn't really warm. It was comfortable. You had the steam heaters, or, I don't know if you ever saw em, but they're big old iron things. You turn the steam- steam on, and the iron heater would warm up and warm up the room. But I remember doing a lot of projects on the black the green board. There were black boards. They call them black, but they were green. I have never understood that. And in the sixth grade, yeah, it was the fifth by fifth grade class, the message we played with right across each other. So I remember us going across the street, and I remember we had a recess in the hall playing jacks. I mean, we could- We had a recess every day. Now come think of it- never then. I remember Ms. Shaussey's class.

I remember one of my schoolmates. I forgot his name, but he he was in an accident. Got all burned. Yeah, he burned his face, and he came back and he looked bad. You know, he was all- all covered up. But I remember that Ms. Shaussey’s class.

So you're saying that in one of the classrooms you could directly see the construction. That was of I-35. Did you- Did you ever feel like the construction was interrupting your education?

Though Frank de Leon Jr. does not feel that the contruction of I 35 interferred with his education, it was led to the eventual demise of Palm School as students could no longer traverse the highway to get to school safely.

No, it just something to look at. I don't feel it interfered at all. Yeah

Were there any- and this is based on on people who have gone to schools in Texas, there's songs or maybe anthems or poems that they would teach the students. Do you remember of anything like that that was taught to you?

No, no, I'm trying. Never thought about it... other than the Pledge of Allegiance.

Did you do the pledge allegiance to to the US and Texas? Or was it only to the US?

The U.S. Yeah. "I pledge allegience to the United States of America. One republic, for which it stands, one nation under God, indiv- something like that. Yeah, I remember that all the way to junior high. I believe.

We used to do the US and then the Texas one.

I never know when I don't know the Texas one, off the top of- I don't know it.

I don't remember it, but I know we did it in elementary. Now, you were telling me that one of the things that you remember is, you know, Christopher Columbus, yeah, and doing these things. Were there ever any teachings? Or, you know, did you ever learn about the Mexican American experience, or Mexican American Chicano history in the U.S. while being at Palm School?

No. I mean, well, well, no, no, no, I don't, I don't recall anything. Just, I remember just in the fifth elementary It was mostly just basic stuff: math, arithmetic, reading, writing, stuff like that. American, American history. I remember American history in the fourth grade talking about George Washington, yeah. But just basic American history. Texas- I don't think the Texas history was. It wasn't until maybe junior high, high school. I can't remember.

I know you were you- you said that math, that you were good at math. Would you say that math was your favorite subject?

No, it was just something I did. I mean, it was- I learned basic math. Excuse me, let me get some water. All right, yeah. Now math- I mean, I learned the basic math, arithmetic, multiplications, division, adding, basic stuff. In high school, they wanted me to take algebra. It was something, I guess, that was required. I took it. I didn't understand- I didn't to this day, I didn't understand algebra, and I didn't understand why I needed algebra, and I needed that to for credit for to get to graduate. I remember that, but I took it, but I couldn't. I still can't figure it out today, but have never used, never, never had the opportunity to use algebra. And later in my life, I became a purchaser. I was dealing in 1000s of dollars when I was a purchas- that’s another story. But algebra never came up there either when I made when I was purchasing for Texas State University. So what I was algebra was math, was basic math I had no problem, just algebra. I think my brother Marcos aced it. I think, I don't know, but I didn't.

Were there any subjects or activities regarding learning that you think "these were my favorite memories of Palm School," something that sticks out, maybe a story-?

It wasn’t a story, but I think my favorite is history. That's my favorite. I love history. I continue study my history even after, after I got out of high school, history was my favorite subject. I attended Texas State University for about three years. I'm an official college dropout of the family, but I took a lot of history courses at the university level. I love the history. I still, I still study history today, you know. But as far as you know, just that was my favorite subject, history, everything else I had to do, because I had to do, I even took typing. I feel that I can- I think I failed typing, but I've, but I can type pretty good. Somehow it's whatever I learned. It the basic stuff, it stuck with me. So I've been, you know, using a computer and things like that. I learned something, though it sticks with you.

So in terms of- and you've spoken a little bit about teachers, like your sixth grade teacher that you had, you've spoken about Mr. Boyd, what do you think was the staff, the teachers expectations of you all as students while at Palm School?

I don't know if they- I guess they had some kind of expectations, but I- it was never, you know, told- I was told about- they were just preparing me to to go to the next to the next class, the second, the third, the fourth, the fifth and the sixth. And that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to go the next one. I wanted to see in the first I guess the first one, classes, grades, one, two, three, were downstairs. Four, five, and six were upstairs. And I wanted to go upstairs. So when I got to fourth grade, Hey, man, I made it.

I know you said you were a little bit disconnected with Spanish, but was Spanish spoken in school? Or were you allowed to speak Spanish?

Well, I remember and we weren't we were not allowed to speak Spanish in the halls. I remember walking the halls. If you was heard- spoke in Spanish, speaking Spanish, they would correct you. So maybe that was a good thing, that I was able to learn English helped me later on in life. You know, being proficient in English, I think, helped me. But you know, being in school speaking Spanish to a teacher would- I don't know if they could speak Spanish at all. So it never occurred to me that I can’t remember exactly if we spoke Spanish in school, but I don't, you know within ourselves. I think we probably did, but I don't remember for some reason. I just remember speaking English all the time.

The de Leons attended school during the "English Only" movement. "English Only" was an educational pedagogy popular in the United States from to about 1968 which included local, state, and federal educational policy which forbade the use of non-English languages like Spanish in schools. If students were caught speaking a language other than English, they could recieve a punishment ranging frim detention or suspension, to corporal punishments like pinching or paddling.

I know you've also described, and and it's known, right that the Palm School was next or, or there was a Palm Park andn the pool, right there. Do you have any memories of that palm Park? I know you described that there was like a merry-go-round and some swings?

Oh yeah, even after I got out of Palm School, we kept going back. It was- it was like a neighborhood park. There was a swimming pool. We used to go swimming every summer. Even after we got out of Palm School, we continued going to the movie- the movies there in for recreation, baseball, you know, playing the swings and just hanging around. That was a good place to hang around with, with friends. It was a playground for for many, many, many years, all summer long, we spent there after school with old school. We spent all our time at the park with friends, myself, my brothers and other friends. Yeah.

It's been also documented through oral histories and archival work that the- that that specific pool, I'm sorry, was segregated. Did you ever experience or witness any sort of you know you, if you were Mexican you couldn't come on this day, or did you have free range?

Oh man, no, that was- if it was we didn't notice. There was- the only thing back then we didn’t see “blacks” in the neighborhood. I don't remember seeing any “blacks” in the pool or in the park. It was just either Mexicanos or Anglos, yeah, and we all got along that I recall.

I know you were, you were talking as well about the Safety Patrol, and Anita mentioned yesterday that that was kind of like a club or a- something extracurricular that you could do. Could you describe, and you said you were picked to be safety patrol? Could you describe what that was like? What you remember about being Safety Patrol?

Well, it wasn't- It was harder than I thought it was, yeah. So you had to kind of look at the traffic and kind of figure out when a car would come by. So you don't, you don't want to- You would you want to block the kids, then you look around, make sure there was no cars coming. Then you would let them go to across the street. There was, like two or three crossings. One was on 1st Street. I want to say 1st Street, I know it's Cesar Chavez and some of the new guys might like that, but we always knew it as 1st Street, "la calle primera." So it was on 1st Street, cross into across the 3rd, Highway 81/ I-35 and then crossing over to towards Rainey Street, and the other one was on the north, going north, crossing to 2nd Street.

Did they give you any type of vest or, like?

Yeah, they gave you- they gave you a hat, like a military hat, but it was white and some kind of a collar. It was- it'd go across here. It was white, had a little badge you put around here. But they didn't give us a flag. I don't recall a flag. I-

No stop sign either?

I don't remember. Yeah, I think that came later. Yeah,

Was that sort of something you volunteered for? You got voted for?

I don’t know how that got it- I think that there was the big guys, you know, the sixth graders, fifth graders, and then when they have- didn't have- maybe somebody was absent. They would go to the fifth or sixth graders. And I guess, you know, were looking for it. Raise your hand. A bunch of guys would raise their hand. Okay, you it was random pick. One time I got picked.

So would you, would you get pulled out of the classroom to go do that, or how would that-?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the teacher had to let you go, as far as I know. Yeah, it was close to, you know, thee the class. Yeah, maybe 10 minutes before class ended.

Were there any- just like, you know, when you think back of your time at Palm School, any memory that really brings you joy, or that brings you, you know, is like, "this is a wonderful memory that I'm always going to share, cherish from Palm School"?

Well, you know, it's not a- it's not a- it's not even bad. But the one memory about the the Halloween story and the Christopher Columbus. And then, I think I was in the fourth grade, and we- we were drawing or coloring, and I got in an argument with a little girl named Mary Alice, for some reason, it had to do something with coloring. It was right before we had recess, we had a period, we go outside and play, and she had just sharpen her pencil, and she got mad at me for some reason, and she stabbed me right here with it. I still got it in the blue dot. That's my first tattoo. I think it's on this side. And I remember that. I never forget it. I remember her name, Mary, Alice, but I can't remember her face, but I remember the teacher consoling me. And I think she kept a little girl, and then from at that, we went outside and played. But I remember that I'll never forget it. It's not a bad memory, just a memory, you know. But I remember that.

We've spoken about a little bit about, you know, your experiences being paddled maybe once or twice. But do you recall any other bad experiences that you might have had at Palm School?

No, no, I don't remember. Yeah, it was other than the paddling, yeah. I mean, everything, everything was, you know, nothing dramatic, you know?

What were the other children like? Or, how do you remember them treating you like?

Well we all got along. I remember like at recess. We, for some reason, everybody liked to play jacks. Actually, that's what you could do. You sit on the floor. Already played jacks, or heard of it. You just sit on the floor and, yeah, and we all, we all got along.

Jacks is the one where you have, like, a little ball, and then you grab?

Yeah, that's little things like a cross the metal, metal, metal, and you throw the ball out, you pick up the jack and catch the ball, it's eye coordination and stuff, it was fun. I couldn't do it no more though.

Do you remember having any best friends at Palm school?

Other then my brothers? I knew guys, you know, but I don't, I don't remember going to their houses, or we just hang around. My brothers were my best friends. We, we, yeah, we hang around together. I entered junior high. We started going having other friends.

So at Palm School, we're all three of you together at one point?

No, we were, we were a couple of classes behind. Yeah, we knew, I think Marcos and Geraldo, they were, they got to junior high, and I was there one year, and had to leave. I went to high school. Same thing. They were like two- I think Marcos was two years behind in my Geraldo was like three years behind me. So we never really- in high school. We never, yeah, yeah. We didn't. When you see each other in class, in school, very much.

And at Palm School, either?

Yeah, I don't, yeah, I don't remember. You know, you know us been together. I knew they were there, but we never ran into each other.

Were there any celebrations that Palm School would- would highlight or do? Maybe Mother's Day, Anita mentioned yesterday that they had Fiesta days. Do you remember any celebration like that at Palm School?

No. Yeah, I was someone new when I was when I was planning to come over, you know, selected to be here. I was going trying to think of all kind of stuff, just blank, blank, blank.

In terms of opportunities for families to be involved. Was your- was your father ever going to school, or did he ever attend any parent teacher conference or anything like that?

Not that I'm aware of. I think maybe the first day of school and went and enlist- enlisted (laughter), when he took us to enroll with.

So if you would think of what role education has played in your life. How would you describe that?

Well, I think I was given the basics. I think it's up to me to go from there. I was, I was taught to read and write, you know? Math, you know, maybe socializing with other people, but you know, you know, it prepared me, but I don't think, I think I got my best. Well, you never stop learning. You know, I was, I was an average kid. I made Fs, I made Bs, I made, I think, couple of A's, but I was a B, C, average guy. So I just, you know, went to school, learned, graduated. Well, actually, I'm a mid-term graduate. I didn't, I didn't grad… I was supposed to graduate in 64 but like, said, I failed Algebra, and I think typing, so I was a guy, like a credit a half, and I had to make it up. So I went, instead of dropping out, I went ahead and finished. I mean, I went an extra, an extra semester of school, and I just took pretty- a couple of three, four courses. I was about halfway just to get my my my credits like I needed one and a half. To my surprise, I wasn't the only one. We graduated mid-term. It was a it was a big- it was me, it was high school, it was Austin High, McCallum, and a couple other schools we all graduated together at the ceremony at the Austin High auditorium.

I want to transition a little bit more to thinking about the Palm School within a larger, you know, Chicano, East Austin, Austin, Texas, you know, as Maggie was, was mentioning, how do you think the Palm School fit into the larger Mexican American community?

You know, but back then, you didn't, you didn't, I didn't think we wasn't known as a community, Mexican American community. It was just a neighborhood, you know? Today, things are labeled different, or seen different. Maybe, I don't know, because you go back and look and you see something else. Back then, eight year old, you know, just doing, just living your life, doing what you're supposed to, go to school, learn, go home, good time. But you know, other than that, you know, I don't fit anything in the community. Just it was a neighborhood, you know?

If you- and maybe this is not something that that you may be aware of, but do you know if maybe your father had a choice as to whether he wanted to send you to Palm School or not, or was that kind of just by design of where you lived in the neighborhood?

Yeah think it was where we lived, yeah, when we lived in- I remember when we came back from Pharr, that's where my mother died. We lived on Haskell Street, and that's on East Austin. That's by the old Fish Hatchery. My uncle, my uncle, Luther, that's my father's brother. We lived with him for a couple, and then we then we got our own place. So it was just basically that.

I'm interested also in like I like I said, I've been privileged to- to interview people that have family members that went to Palm School. So as being the eldest of two brothers, what does that mean to you? The fact that this was also a family- like a school where your family went to, how does that shape maybe your idea of family and your brothers sharing this history in Rainey Street, East Austin, and Palm School?

Well you know, back then, you didn't think like that. You wasn't like that. It's maybe later, but it was, it's the thing you did back then. We lived there. The school was there, you know, we went to school in our neighborhood, you know, as far as shaping me, I got it, you know, I was supposed to get an education, which I did, you know, and things the first couple, first 12 years, your life again, you know, you get educated. Get so prepared. Once you get out of high school, it's up to you for the how you going to turn out and how you going to react or take your your part in history. You know? You know, so I was, I think I was well prepared into my high school, my to my 12 years, 12 and a half years of schooling and my education, my life really didn't start until after I got out of high school. It was, you know, it was high school. Have a good time. Go play after school. Just do your own thing. It was very simple. Today is, I guess it's complicated back then, you know, you gotta eat breakfast, go to school, come back. Go play. Get into trouble, you know, go do some bad things here and there, (laughter) but then that was normal. You know, we didn't break any laws, we didn't hurt any property. You know, we just grew up. Pretty simple. It was pretty simple, really. Complicated today, I'm afraid.

Yeah, there's, there's a lot of other things that I think today, now, students have to be hyper focused, hyper aware of because there has been so much work done on it, right? And, and I always, I'm like, it's a double-edged sword, because as much as you're growing conscious, you're also worried about so many things, yeah, and you may lose focus of education.

Yeah, yeah, you're right. There's a lot of distractions. We didn't have distractions other than- our home. I mean, we didn't have- what'd we have? We didn't get a TV till- it was back to me. It was a high school/junior high when we first got our first TV, black and white.

So looking back today, how do you think that the people feel the community feels about the history of Palm School?

When you say community, you're talking about the people that they live in an area? Yeah, yeah. Well, you know it to me, I'm always, I was always, am always glad. And when I live in San Marcos, I left, I left Austin in '65 to get out of high school. And every time when I pass, I enjoyed looking at the school. I you know, it's there. It's still there. Lot of things are not there, no more. Superior Dairies is not it's no longer there. That Good Year store, that drug store, you know, everything around there is gone. The whole, the whole section between 35 and Congress. I mean, I mean 1st Street between 35 and Congress. It's all changed. It used to be all- nice neighborhood. The whole area was pretty simple. You could go almost anywhere in that part of town. They used to be the warehouse district. Now it's used to be kind of a different kind of warehouses, businesses and stuff. It's all changed.

Much of the East Austin Neighborhood that surronded the Palm School was claimed by both emminent domain by the state department of transportation in order to build and expand I 35, as well as the University of Texas at Austin expanding its campus.

So I know, when we were in the room, we were looking at sort of images, and, you know, we were discussing certain businesses and things like that that were that were around the neighborhood. Do you remember any of those, what they look like, maybe who the owners were, or what what these businesses and surrounding were?

Well on 1st Street, there was a small grocery store. If you're familiar with 1st Street, Cesar Chavez for you folks who don't know what 1st Street is, west of west of the school, just Superior Dairies, and then you got Red River. And then you get to Waller Creek on the right hand side, left hand. There was a little grocery store. And that was the neighborhood grocery store when we lived there, you got bread, soda, stuff like that. And we're just a big- right now, I think on Red River and 1st Street there's a barbecue place. Back then it was iron, some kind of iron factory. They would make iron stuff out of iron. I remember that, and that was our- and then Superior Dairies. So we spent a lot of time in Superior Daries. We would buy the ice cream, and then you, you would get, you get the there was the cap on the ice cream, these little caps, and you would save those, and he could, you would exchange him for gifts, for prizes and stuff.

And then the the grocery store, I remember the owner. I can't forget, I forgot their names, but they they would back then you have put, you paid a deposit for bottles, for Coke, Seven-Ups, and there was a deposit of two cents, and he would give you one penny for 'em. And that's what, that was his cost. He would give so we would go out. That's how we got our movie money. My brothers and myself, we would go in that warehouse district with anybody was produce stores, all kind of stuff, and lot of workers, and they would just, back then, no cans, all bottles. And they would discard the bottles, leave them there. And we would go after school or at night, and we'll find bottles all over the place. 10,15, take 'em to this gentleman at the store, and he was give us a penny for him, and all we needed was 15 cents. We could go to movies. Used to cost, it'd cost he's cost us five cents to go the movies, and it would go the Ritz. And we see a double feature for five cents back then, I remember that we do that. That's anytime we wanted to go movies, we'd go look for bottles, and we found them, and that's how we would- that was, that was kind of fun.

Any any movies that you remember watching that stick out to you?

I remember seeing The Lone Ranger. Yeah, I saw Elvis Pressley, “Love Me Tender.” And the last movie they played the Ritz Theater. I know this because I was there, was the West Side Story. West Side Story, I guess came out in '62 something like that, 1960? We went- I went and saw that. For some reason my brothers didn't want to go see I would say that. And the next day there was having another feature. And when we showed up, it was closed, closed for remodeling, and never reopened. It reopened later on, but somebody else, but the actual the last movie played at Ritz Theater was the West Side Story that I recall. That's a musical, right? About musical, yeah, yeah. It was a good musical. It was seen as, yeah, it's on TV. It's you can see reruns of it. They made a new one, but it wasn't as good as the old one. Yeah, here's a political-cut type movie, if I remember. But that thing, we didn't call it, it wasn't political. We didn't call it. We didn't think was political. I didn't realize political things so way, way, way back, back then, things were, weren't political. They were just, that's the way it was.

I know when we were when we were also in the room. You were describing that the windows in the top right maybe were of the library, right? Do you remember what the inside of the library looked like?

I remember is it wasn't that big. I remember the counter was facing the windows, though, as you looked at the window, there was a counter there, and then the rest the library. But it wasn't really that big. But I remember the library. Just books. We used to go there and read books and stuff like that, I don't remember that much.

Do you remember if it was something that you enjoyed going to?

No, it was away from class. Look at books. You know?

I want to move a little bit to kind of what came after Palm School. And I don't know if maybe you had gone to, I think it's UJH?

University Junior High (UJH) was a Junior High School run in partnership by Austin ISD and the University of Texas at Austin's Department of Education from 1933 to 1967. It served as an expiremnetal campus overseen by UT as the first racially desegregated school in Austin begining in 1957. When the Allan Junior High building burned down in 1956, the UJH building also began to host Allan students. It was demolished in 2024 to make way for a new practice facility for UT football players.

Is that where you went to middle school?

Yeah, University Junior High. Yeah. Yeah. To junior high there.

Could you describe what that was like, going from, from Palm School to then the middle school?

It was fun. It was something. It felt like big guys, you know, junior high. Yes, it was, uh, 7th, 8th and 9th grade. Now they call it Middle School, yeah, but it was a, I think it's, it was, it's part of, it was part of the university system. It was, but the- the old high school, the junior high that I was supposed to go to, everybody was supposed to go: Allan Junior High, but it burned down. And that was right there on, I think on somewhere on Red River, maybe Red River and 12th Street, or 11th Street, or something like that, or 8th Street. But it burned down, so we, we were looking forward to go to to Allan Junior High. It was kind of like, like, Palm School, old, yeah, brick building. So we went on going to University Junior High. But I, you know, it was, I spent a lot of time in detention hall there. Again, we did the American Pledge of Allegiance to the flag. It was a nice it was, I enjoyed going, yeah.

University Junior High (UJH) was a Junior High School run in partnership by Austin ISD and the University of Texas at Austin's Department of Education from 1933 to 1967. It served as an expiremnetal campus overseen by UT as the first racially desegregated school in Austin begining in 1957. When the Allan Junior High building burned down in 1956, the UJH building also began to host Allan students. It was demolished in 2024 to make way for a new practice facility for UT football players.

That's why I decided to join the Air Force. We were talking about career day or something like that, and I told- they asked, "what you want to do, when you grow up, what are your ideas?" I told him, I want to be a jet pilot, join the Air Force. So that back in junior- that's when I set my mind on, that.

Do you remember why maybe the Air Force stuck out to you?

Yeah, I guess you just see movies about, yeah, the army never did phase me, but yeah, that would just, I just saw myself sitting in a jet plane. Well, I did join the Air Force, but I didn’t become a pilot. But, yeah. But you know, I remember in junior high, we started talking about Texas history. I remember that because I remember one of my professor, instructors, teachers, told us about Pancho Villa. He gave the history of the history of Texas, and Pancho Villa, guy would come across the border, and I remember that that was in junior high. That's when I first started learning about, you know, history and for the United States and other countries and stuff.

So that is kinda your your first introduction to anything Mexican history.

Really, I guess so, yeah, yeah, I've heard of these guys, but never really heard nothing much, yeah.

And when you said career day, that possibly that may have been an avenue as to how you were interested in in the Air Force. Did they have people come in and talk about it? Or were the, were the schools playing these movies that you were-

No that just was, I guess they were doing some kind of survey evaluating what you want to do, maybe to to see what what courses to lead me to take. So, you know, I think back then you could, you had certain you could take electives and stuff like that. Personally, you had your basics, then electives and- But I remember that was one of the questions.

Did the demographics from Palm School, change when you went to to a junior high did, or was it still predominantly Mexican and Anglo?

No. Excuse me. That's when. That's when we first were introduced to black students in junior high. We didn't have any in in Palm. But we did have black students. We didn't have that many, though, maybe a handful, that I can recall. Matter of- it was a handful even in high school.

So things kind of stayed the same in terms of-

Yes, Anglos and Mexicanos and everybody seemed to get along. I don't remember any any fights and protests or anything like that. It was pretty normal. You were another elementary, but a higher class, you know, sixth grade, seventh, juniors. (Laughter).

And then after you go to junior high, what is the name of the school that then you went for high school to?

Stephen F Austin, on 12th and Rio Grande. It's still there now, but it's part of Austin Community.

Frank is referring to the Austin Community College: Rio Grande Campus of today, which is located on Rio Grande and 11th Street. The building formally served as part of the Stephen F. Austin High School Campus when it opened in 1882. The high school was eventually relocated due to population growth.

Do you remember any stories about Stephen Austin that stick out to you?

Well, yeah, that's when the all the protests started, the "blacks" started protesting and stuff. That's when you see all the the riots in in Alabama, Mississippi and Georgia, all that stuff. But we didn't have any that, any of that here. That's something. There was nothing like that here. I remember there was a big KK-Klan march on Congress, and they were protesting because I don't know, part of the natural- the national thing of protesting anti-segregation and this and that. And there was a big old parade in Austin. It was actually not a big parade. It was the KKK marching down Congress Avenue, and they were getting a lot of boo’s I remember that. And it was, that's when the black movement started, and we had black kids at our school, and with there was nothing like that, you know, I thought it was pretty good that we weren't doing that in on Austin. You know, that's when it. Yeah, I remember that.

So you kind of, or are, you kind of heard stories based on the news, I'm assuming right of things that were happening elsewhere?

Yeah, you see the news. Yeah, every day. Yeah, it was common, yeah. But nothing here.

And this is around the late 1960s?

Late 1960s Yeah, 60- between '63 to '65, '62, '65 that's when I got that. When I left, I graduated 65. Yeah, Vietnam and all that.

And then you enlist in the Air Force right after high school?

Yeah. And actually, before- The recruiting office was on 6th Street, just down the street from Congress. And going to high school, there were several routes you could take to take the bus, which most of the time I missed, because by time I got to my neighborhood, it was full. So the recruiting office just down on down the street from 6th at 6th street, and I would sometimes come back, go down Rio Grande and turn on 6th Street and head home. And there was a courthouse, and there was a recruit off there one day I stopped, checked it out. And the guy "sure, well, come on in." So we saw I started the paperwork about six months before I got out of high school.

And you had said that you you had served, and then you had a break in between, right? And then you became part of the reserve?

Yeah, I got out '68 and went back in 70 something, 77 I think, or 75.

Did anybody else in your family enlist?

I think my brother, Geraldo, he joined the Navy, but he had a medical problem, so they let him go. Yeah, but I had, I had uncles that were- my uncle Luther and my uncle John were in the army, World War Two. But that was not an influence on me, on that at least, I just knew about it.

Just wanted to be a pilot.

I wanted to be a pilot.

In looking back, what do you think are some of the accomplishments or highlights of your life that you're you're proud of today?

Today? Oh, I've done a lot of things, you know? I went to college on a GI Bill. I spent- when I- when I dropped out, I was classified as a junior. But I had to get out because I had a family, and it was, it was kind of rough on the family, my wife and the kids. Plus, I had to, I had to need extra money, so I had to get a part time job. So, but as far as things that I'm proud of, I've done a lot of things, like say I didn't go to college, but I learned a lot of things. I found out I couldn't do certain things, wow. But I- I worked in a grocery store, and I became a manager in the grocery store- grocery business. I started as a clerk and went up as a store manager, assistant store manager or- and I also became a produce manager, in charge of the produce department. And then I went to then I went work for university, Texas State University, which is Texas State. And I went there, and I started in the grounds department, and I worked my way up to the produce, I mean, produce- purchaser. I became, I was the first certified purchaser in my department to get a certified to purchase for the state. And I I learned, that's where I learned how to use a computer, and I was I purchase. I made purchases from, I would buy from different vendors, set up contracts. My biggest contract that I did, I negotiated, was for a half a million dollars for- to pick up the trash service for the university. And I took the bid, I did the all the paperwork, and I learned a lot of things, you know, doing that. But that was, I'm real proud that that what I did, you know, I became the first purchaser, authorized purchaser for my, our, department, and I negotiated. I didn't realize that I could do things like that. It just happened. And I caught on real quick, and I was, I was very good at my job. Yeah, that's one thing.

Are there things about your education or your life that that you would like to touch upon that I haven't yet asked you?

No, well, you know, yeah, my life, you know, I don't know. I have I lived a pretty normal life. I mean, I my wife and I, we were married, we struggled. But now I'm not, you know, we, we owned a home. We paid for it. And our kids, they're doing okay. They both. They- all of them. I got two born and grown. They're doing real good. They got good jobs. My son is he works for the university now. He's, he's a director of irrigation. He runs the whole crew, all the great irrigation for the university. He controls it. And he's got people. He's got several people under him. My daughter, she's office manager for a doctor in Amarillo, and I'm pretty proud of that. They're doing they're doing real good. They're not struggling. They're doing real good financially. You know, I'm doing okay, so. But it was hard, you know, it was, it wasn't easy. But you know, you know, I'm not, I don't regret it, the stuff that happened, you know, the bad stuff. Yeah, good. Life's good, still. My wife passed away, but life's still good. You know, I have no complaints. I have no complaint.

So I have a final question to ask you, and it is if you could describe who Frank De Leon has become. How would you describe your life story?

Never really thought about that. Yeah, pretty, I guess you could, it's pretty ordinary. U.S. story: poor boy makes, does good, but didn't know he was a poor boy, you know? I never thought it. I never thought I was poor. It was just the way it was. But we, you know, we struggled. But it wasn't, you know, "oh my God, I don't have this," you know, it was. That's the way it was, adjusted. I think it prepared me for, for for later on in life, you know. I've been around the world a couple of times, in the military, been all kinds, you know, over the Atlantic, over the Pacific. Served in- I didn't serve. I mean, I participated. I didn't serve in combat, and during Vietnam. Desert Storm, I was a participant. I feel proud that I contributes- I was part of the the force that brought evil down, you know, I think I did good, you know?

Well, I just, on a personal level, want to thank you for sharing everything. You are part of history, and I want you to know that you are part of not only Austin's history and Texas history, but Chicano history at a larger scale. And you doing this really means a lot for for many people, and I think remembering is really important so so once again, thank you so much for everything. I'm good with questions, so I think we will wrap up here.

All right, thank you. Yeah, thank you. So you're welcome. Thank you too.